Amy-Caroline: 0:01

It's really nice that across all of the offices we can all share together, we can learn from each other and we can collaborate.

Matts: 0:08

For Hong Kong, we serve the whole market, right? So it's a huge, huge territory. It goes from Korea all the way down to Australia and New Zealand. It's absolutely massive. And there is so many cultures, so many countries. So you need to be able to adapt.

Patrick: 0:24

In our case, if I look at the Kenyan office, even if we do not travel, we will be working with people from North Africa or South Africa or East Africa and so on. By staying on your desk, you need to be able to adapt.

Amy-Caroline: 0:37

When I came to Belgium, people are used to kissing on the cheek, which was super strange for me, especially when just meeting someone, I kind of felt like, I know Americans are huggers, but this was a bit too far.

Matts: 0:49

In Odoo Belgium, you can sit in the lunchroom and you have the CEO himself who will come and sit next to you to have lunch, which is amazing. And one of the challenges that we face in Hong Kong is indeed that really strong respect for hierarchy.

Patrick: 1:04

Here in the new office, we are not going to change the culture in the city where we come in, but we can surely promote also the culture of the company we are working in.

Matts: 1:14

Even if it's just to understand, you know, the gossip that's going on on the office floor. Just for that alone, I would love to speak the local language. Definitely a plus point.

Patrick: 1:23

We tend to forget how people could perceive it simply because they have other lenses to read the same thing or the same reality.

Matts: 1:30

It's useful to have what I like to call like kind of a cultural translator where if you're about to make some big decisions, you can check in with that person that has a good understanding of what you want to do and ask them, okay, how do you think this will be perceived? From a more cultural point of view?

Patrick: 1:49

You need to be prepared to be amazed, to be delighted, to be sometimes shocked by the cultural differences.

Matts: 1:54

My number one advice is to just try it, throw yourself in it 100%. It will be uncomfortable. But this will be the fastest way to move forward, just to immerse yourself in the new environment.

Amy-Caroline: 2:06

Hi guys, and welcome back to Planet Odoo. My name is Amy Caroline and I'm originally from the US but have been working at Odoo in Belgium for quite some time .In my years working abroad, I've had the chance to work with people from all around the globe, due to the fact that Odoo has 15 offices worldwide and a very international community. I soon learned that cultural and individual differences can be a strong asset for any organization, but can also cause miscommunication, different perceptions and potentially frustration. As your business is expanding, you might get to a point where you'll come across people with different cultural backgrounds, and navigating these differences is crucial in order to preserve optimal growth. Today, we'll give the mic to inspiring guests that have been working across cultures for years, from Belgium to Hong Kong and Kenya. They have a rich and diverse view to share with us on multiculturalism at work. All right. So thank you so much for joining me today, Mats and Patrick, it is an honor. And it's really interesting because I think all three of us have experience working across cultures. So of course, we know how exciting and interesting it can be as well as the challenges. And I think we all know what we might have done differently if we could go back in time. But let's start,just to have you guys introduce yourselves. So, Patrick, will you go ahead?

Patrick: 3:26

Yeah, sure. Thank you very much for the occasion actually to share some of my experiences. I'm glad to be here with my friends, Matts and to see all of you. My name is Patrick. I come from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where I was born and grew up until the end of my secondary school. And then from there, I worked a little bit in mostly in the chemical industry where I had the chance to meet people from all around the globe, mostly from Australia, Canada and so on. And then from there I relocated to Belgium and that was a shock. I went there for my university studies. And it is not to say that everything almost was new, although I thought I had an idea by simply watching TV. Right? So that is kind of my background on a personal level. And then on the professional level, since I graduated, I've been working with Odoo where I started as an intern. I had the chance to work in many Odoo offices from Belgium to India and now in Kenya, Nairobi. That's a little bit of an introduction.

Amy-Caroline: 4:38

So you definitely have explored many different cultures now, so you have some great insight to give us and Matts tell us a little bit about yourself as well.

Matts: 4:48

Yes, great. So hello, Amy. Thank you so much for having me on the show today. Really excited to participate. So, yes, my name is Mats. I'm from Belgium and in Belgium from Zaventem, to be specific. The airport city, the one place to think in Belgium that everybody knows. So I started at Odoo in 2016 in the direct sales team, and actually in 2018, when I was 26, I received the opportunity to move to Hong Kong to manage the Odoo Asia Pacific office. So in April it's going to be five years that I've been in Hong Kong. It's crazy how time flies. And before moving to Hong Kong, my only working experience was actually in Belgium. So this is my first experience abroad, so to say. And yeah, actually I have more experience working abroad than in my home country. And, I would also like to give like a bit of background on why I actually wanted to work for abroad. So after my studies, which I did in Belgium, I wanted to follow a lifelong dream, which was to kind of backpack around without really a solid plan. So I booked a one way ticket to India. I traveled a bunch all around Asia, and after pretty much six months of backpacking, got a bit bored of just backpacking around and decided to do a hitchhiking challenge basically from Vietnam all the way to Belgium. And it was really cool. It was an awesome experience. But I also realized that just moving from place to place can get tiring. You never really get to know a place very well, So I said it would be nice to actually work abroad and to stay in the same place for a long time, which is exactly what I said when I had my job interview at Odoo. And I'm obviously very happy that they listened and gave me the opportunity to work abroad.

Speaker4: 6:40

That's very cool. So it's yeah, it's been five years now. You said, Do you feel that you've settled in? How long did it take for you to adapt?

Matts: 6:49

Yeah, that's a very good question. I think it was the two year mark that's really that marked it for me. So the first years, it's more challenging, I think more on a personal level because you have to start and you have to build everything from scratch. So you arrive in a place, think I knew one person in all of Hong Kong, somebody I met like before in travels. I was there with my wife, so that made things a bit easier. But you still have to start completely from scratch. And I think after two years we kind of figured out, okay, this is how you settle in, this is how you start meeting people. And ever since then, yeah, it felt more and more like home really.

Speaker4: 7:28

That's good to hear. I know, Patrick, you had already done that before, but is it still as challenging when you have to shift your life to a new country once again or did you learn from your experience coming to Belgium and then you kind of knew how to adjust more quickly?

Patrick: 7:45

I feel it's still challenging and I can totally relate with what Matt says now. Am warned that they need at least to wait two years before you get to know the new place I'm in, which is Nairobi. But obviously my past experience has helped. For example, when you go in a new city like where we found ourselves today in Nairobi, we had to set everything from scratch. Unlike maybe the experience of my colleague who didn't have an office. So we had to set an office, a look for a place and start getting new colleagues. And you had only yourself and your wife to do so. But thanks to the past experience you are able to pick up a few habits like finding a place to do some sport or finding a venue to go in my in my case to got to church and to help me in a few months, 6 to 7 to to get kind of a social community which I'm still having getting to know. But it makes the whole transition really easy.

Amy-Caroline: 8:50

I completely agree. Finding that community, it's one of the most challenging things in the beginning because you have to force yourself to get out of your comfort zone and meet people. And you can't assume that people will be more outgoing just because they're from wherever you're going, you know? So you really have to put yourself in the position to feel comfortable to reach out and really integrate into the community.

Matts: 9:14

Yeah, maybe I wanted to also pick up on that. So I think that's the most striking difference that I've had moving abroad. When you are like me, you live your whole life in Belgium, you have your friends group, right? So you meet them when you're in kindergarten, when you're three years old and you stick with pretty much the same people until you are going to university, maybe even afterwards. And then you arrive in a place and you realize, okay, I have to start from scratch. And I think the great thing about Hong Kong is that it is a place where it's a lot of expats, it's a big expat community, and the expat community in general is really extroverted. So if you put a bit of effort, it's easy to get to know people. And once you know people, it's even easier to know even more people. And there's events that happen all the time. There is actually a lot of Belgians living in Hong Kong, too. It's the biggest Belgian community in all of Asia Pacific. So it does make it easy to make contacts in general. But yeah, it's just tapping into those first people. That's, I think, the challenge.

Amy-Caroline: 10:17

Yeah, absolutely,

Patrick: 10:18

Totally. The first person will open doors to the others and it's kind of a chain.

Amy-Caroline: 10:23

Yeah, it just takes one good person and then. But you guys had more than just the personal challenge. You needed to build an office and find new employees. And so what was the trick to sort of quickly figuring out what work differences there were in the culture? It's kind of a tricky question. I know. And it might be more subtle than it is to say, Oh, but this is the one thing that we look at, but just from your experiences so far, what would you say are some of the key differences we can start with Patrick?

Patrick: 10:55

Yeah, sure thanks. I have to be honest, when I started building a team, it did not cross my mind as a priority to consider the cultural differences. I think I was so focused on simply knowing what are the profiles of people we want at Odoo and what does the should the team look like? And in our mind, what we wanted to do is to make sure that if we hire someone in this local office, that person could potentially work in other Odoo offices that the ideal colleague we were looking for. So it was not really paramount to look at the cultural differences, it is when we started now, sitting with our colleagues on a daily basis, eight hours a day, discussing and knowing each other, that you started to notice the differences with the team members. A Few ones that they can quickly pick up is simply the way people relate to their management, which could be at some point distant or cautious to say. And if you know Odoo and especially the headquarter, you will quickly feel that this is very different from how we behave in Belgium, where you can see sit on a table with almost everyone. You can speak to your manager, the CEO or the CFO relating to them, just like any other colleagues or friends. So that distance is shortened, I would say. And here in the new office, it's really something that we spotted at the first time and we said, okay, this is something that we want to work on. We are not going to change the culture in the in the city where we we come in. But we can surely, let's say, promote also the culture of the company we are working in. So it's a trade off. We cannot redesign everything and it can be disrespectful, I would say, but we can truly move a step forward, I mean, closer to other people and let them also come your way. So and we see a couple of other differences in the workplace, but this is the most important that they noticed in the first days or months of working here. Yeah.

Amy-Caroline: 12:57

Nice, Thank you.

Matts: 12:58

Yeah. And to to pick up on that, definitely. Also, one of the challenges that we face in Hong Kong is indeed really strong respect for hierarchy. So as Patrick said in Odoo Belgium, you can sit in the lunchroom and you know, you have the CEO himself who will come and sit next to you to have lunch, which is amazing. And I believe that even in Belgium this is quite unique, to be frank. In Hong Kong, you have such a big power distance. So people are most of the time kind of afraid of of the boss. People will not necessarily speak up when they have an opinion. And even when you give certain guidelines, even if they're wrong, you might not get oposition on that because people don't want to criticize you in public. Right. So it's not the Odoo culture and it usually does take some time before new joiners realize that indeed it is acceptable, and it is even encouraged for people to speak up and to give their own opinion. There is, I think, some other ways that we can achieve that. So even if people are not necessarily going to speak up during meetings, you can have more of a one on one, for example, after the meeting just to see, you know, how certain feedback landed or if there's any, you know, second thoughts on the plan that you have proposed. And so, yeah, we think we need to find a good blend between local working culture and also the unique working culture that we have in Odoo. Because I think for a growing company like Odoo, it's really necessary to get that feedback from from the bottom all the way to the top.

Amy-Caroline: 14:37

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is one of the ways that Odoo is able to offer this sort of multicultural environment. And it's really nice that across all of the offices we can all share together, we can learn from each other and we can collaborate, even though, nof course we all come from different cultural backgrounds, which is completely normal. Another big challenge that you guys might have faced, I know I have faced it here in Belgium, is learning the language. I don't know if you are already speaking the languages of where you're located or if it's primarily English, or as a result of knowing it, not knowing it, or just coming from a different place. If you've had some accidental miscommunications Let's say?

Patrick: 15:27

And maybe I'll start. In my case, it was a little bit funny because speak the language that is spoken in Kenya, which is Swahili, but as I said, originally from the Congo, DRC and the Swahili changes as you move around the globe. It is spoken as far as in the Comoros or in Tanzania and so on. So sometimes I find myself translating from one kind of Swahili to another. So, for example, this is something that helped me to kind of break the ice with some of my colleagues because they would make fun of me to say, okay, you know, you would sometimes can default to English because that one word we don't hear. So on the language part, I think it was easy because of simply the way I would speak. It will ease the connection with people. So this was not really a challenge for me. But understand that if you go to other places, the language there is very important I had the chance to to stay in in India in a really remote place than the capital city. And there in most places, people could not even speak to you in English. So you either use language signs or you try to learn a few words to get your way around the city, how to order a cab or to order food. And that was really interesting.

Amy-Caroline: 16:45

Yeah, definitely. And I think a large part of it is if you're open to communicating as well, it's not necessarily about speaking exactly the same language, but trying to understand the other person in whichever way you can. And I know that sometimes people can feel blocked if they feel like they don't perfectly understand. Then instead of saying, okay, let's figure this out together, they just immediately put up a barrier and then kind of freak out. So that's definitely something you have to get over when traveling or working abroad. I don't know how your experience has been Matts if you want to share.

Matts: 17:19

Yeah, sure. So I do actually speak the local language because English is a local language in Hong Kong. It's one out of three official languages. So that makes the whole integration process also a lot easier. Now, the native language in Hong Kong is Cantonese. It's quite different from Mandarin Chinese, which is spoken in mainland China. And Cantonese is really a difficult language. It's not so complicated in terms of grammar, but in terms of pronunciation, it's extremely challenging. So you have actually three different no, not three, sorry, nine different tones in Cantonese, which is even I think, Yeah. Five more than in Mandarin. So just the way that you're going to pronunciate a word is extremely complicated and I often feel like am saying the right thing, but the other person really doesn't understand it's at all. So because of, you know, the ease of getting around in English and also the challenge of learning completely different and complicated language, to be honest, I haven't really made a lot of progress in the past five years. It's just too easy to get around with English. Now, that being said, I do really think that it's a huge, huge advantage if you speak the the native language, even if it's just to understand, you know, the gossip that's that's going on on the office floor just for that alone. I would love to speak the local language. Definitely a plus point.

Amy-Caroline: 18:44

Okay. You want to know what's going on?

Matts: 18:46

Absolutely.

Amy-Caroline: 18:48

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good point now, totally fair. What are some of the funny differences you guys noticed when you moved there? So for example, when I came to Belgium, people are used to kissing on the cheek, which was super strange for me, especially when just meeting someone, I kind of felt like, okay, I need my personal space. But I mean, I know Americans are huggers, but this was a bit too far when I first arrived to Belgium, so I don't know if you guys have some funny experiences with that?

Matts: 19:19

Definitely. I'm happy to share there. So the way of greeting one another is so different in Hong Kong and I think in Asia in general. So indeed in the Belgian office, you know, especially when I started in 2016, we had a relatively small sales team and every morning we go around the office, you shake hands, you give kisses, which is definitely a big no go in Hong Kong. Like interactions in general are way less physical. You might give a handshake in the first time that you meet somebody, but afterwards you would just don't know. Like raise your hand, say hello or say good morning. And that's usually it. So, yeah, no kissing, no hugging. You know, the American style. And even like tapping somebody on the back, you know, if they've done something good is almost inappropriate. So yeah, in the end, it's pretty simple. You just kind of avoid physical contacts overall. And this really took me some time to adjust because I liked what we had in Belgium. You know, it feels more personal. You really take the time to greet each and every person. Um, even though it can get really complicated in Belgium, right? Like, if you meet French people, it's two kisses, then three kisses for special occasions, one for normal. Sometimes you give a handshake to a guy, sometimes you give a kiss to a guy. So it's almost impossible to keep track. Um, now that I've been in Hong Kong for quite some time, you know that you've experienced the really hot and humid summers. To be honest, it's kind of nice to keep distance from each other most of the time.

Amy-Caroline: 20:51

And so when you go back home, is it weird? Are you like, I'm not sure I want to kiss you anymore?

Matts: 20:56

No, I mean it feels normal and usually in Belgium it's not that hot. So it's okay. You can give each other a hug or a kiss because that's the custom. And actually really funny, so from time to time we have a transfer from a colleague from Belgium to the Hong Kong office. And I remember, it's already a couple of years ago that one of the Belgians came in. It was the first time for him to meet the team, it was still relatively small at the time, I think we were probably 30 or 40. And he would actually go around on his first day and give kisses and handshake to everybody. And you could see everybody was like uncomfortable almost with what was happening because they had no idea but for that person of course, it was the most normal thing. So it was really funny to see the reaction of the colleagues with the Belgian going around and giving kisses to everyone.

Patrick: 21:49

Totally. I think that's one of the thing that stands out and the way people interact for the first time, how they greet. And on the case of kissing, for example, um, in Congo you do not kiss between men. Instead, what you will do is to bump the foreheads. And for example, sometimes in Belgium it will happen to be awkward when I see someone with which I want to bump my forehead and get a kiss, I'm like, Oh, it was not intended in the first place. But then as you switch your social environment, you can quickly default. If we used to go to places where they do not kiss or they do kiss and you go back to your family, you know already that will either shake the hands or bump the forehead. You start to adapt depending on the people in your broader social network. You can just recognize that here will behave in such a way. And in the other, let's say, environments, I know what to do.

Speaker4: 22:46

Yeah, that's actually funny. That's you kind of have to decide in the moment how it will happen, Actually at the office, or at Odoo, we have the chance to be able to do a work exchange if we would like to. So Matts, you mentioned that you had some people from Belgium come and work at the office. So I'm just curious,as to how the team as a whole transitioned so they kind of know what to expect. And Patrick as well, I'm not sure how many people from the office have come to work with you in Nairobi, maybe you can share a little bit about how those experiences have been in the workplace as well?

Patrick: 23:27

Sure. So far we had up to five persons who came. Most of them came for just a few months to help us with the setup, the launch and the initial coaching. And then permanently here we have three other colleagues alongside myself who came from the Belgian office. I have to say that the whole introduction was quite smooth. Apart from the few differences that you mentioned, how to greet people sometimes how to relate with other colleagues or the management. But one funny thing that I see is people tend to speak very, very low over here. I find myself asking people to speak up or to raise the volume. That's the only thing that can stand out in the whole office or even in meetings. Sometimes with our customers, you will see that your colleagues are being requested to raise the volume. But then the whole exchange program, I believe this is something that is bringing some other perspective. When I had the chance to work in our Indian office, which is one the oldest after the one in Belgium, you could really spot the differences between the two offices, the way people reports to the office, the way they behave with their colleagues and also the way they bond together during the lunch breaks and evening events. And this as we grow as a global company opening offices worldwide, I think there is an opportunity to do more exchanges. First for the job, but also to get the broader perspective to understand the world in which we operate. In our case, if I look at the Kenyan office who caters to many countries, even if we do not travel, we will be working with people from North Africa or South Africa or East Africa and so on. By staying on your desk, you need to be able to adapt. For example, if you call someone in the French speaking zone, let's say the Congo and you want to relate to them, you will call him or her Mr. Patrick or Ms. Patrick. You don't just call 'Hey, Patrick', unlike in Belgium, you just call'Hey, Patrick or Hey, Matts' and it's more than okay. And those are the small things that we are learning by changing places, visiting places or Oodoo offices.

Amy-Caroline: 25:54

Yeah, absolutely. And Matts, what about the case in Hong Kong?

Matts: 25:59

Yeah, so think Odoo Hong Kong and Odoo Kenya are quite unique in the sense that we do not work just with the cultures where we are based. So for Odoo Hong Kong, we serve the whole APAC market, right? So it's a huge, huge territory. It goes from Korea all the way down to Australia and New Zealand. Now in Australia we have opened up an office to deal with Australia and also New Zealand, but it's absolutely massive. And there is so many cultures, so many countries and also just so many people in that whole territory. One third of the world's population is actually based in this part of the world. So, you need to be able to adapt because we are dealing with all of these different countries, all of these different nations. And the Odoo Hong Kong office is really well adapted to that. And if you look at, for example, the Odooers that we have here, we have only 44% of the people in our office that are actually local, so that are from Hong Kong. Everybody else is from pretty much all over Asia Pacific. So we have people from Thailand, we have Indonesians, people from Myanmar, Malaysia, Japan, Korea. It's about 22 nationalities in total. And it's necessary, because we're dealing with this massive, massive part of the of the world with all of these different cultures. So next to that, we also have a couple of Europeans in the office. So these are most of the time people who got transferred from Belgium to come and work here. I Feel like at this point we cannot really say that it's an exchange anymore because some of them have been here since 3 or 4 years and feel like they might never want to leave in the first place also. And yeah, for them it's also of course, it has opened up their their minds and I think it's been a great experience for them and it also adds a lot of value to offices worldwide because they come from the Belgian office, they have certain skill sets, certain knowledge. They have, you know a network back in Belgium, which has really helped us to jump forward like at really good speeds.

Amy-Caroline: 28:06

Yeah. Nice. And how did you prepare to be in a management position in a multicultural working environment? Because that's something else as well. It's different than just, you know, joining a job in a in another country and adapting to the new workplace. But here you are in a special position. Both of you are in a special position by actually being the directors of your o ffice. So before arriving, how did you prepare in order to do that in the best way possible?

Matts: 28:37

So I believe you can never really fully prepare for this kind of change. There is a couple of things that you can do. So for me, the fact that I had already traveled in Asia like quite a lot really helped me to understand the mindset and the cultures and the backgrounds of people that we have now in the office. But there was definitely a huge, huge advantage. Next to that, you can educate yourself, right? So I like reading books. I like reading books on the history of, you know, the countries in this massive territory. And again, it will not give you all of the answers, but it will give you more context and also more understanding of the culture that you're going to work with. And obviously, if you approach people with already some knowledge that you gathered yourself, you can see that this is really appreciated. Next to that, I think you have to learn on the job and most of these things actually, most of the skills that you get in life, you can read books about it and you can go to school, but in the end you really have to learn by just doing it, by making mistakes, by making a fool of yourself from time to time or very often and slowly, step by step, year by year, you will understand how it's working. And you will get better at it. So that would be my number one advice, is to just try it, throw yourself in it 100%, it will be uncomfortable, but this will be the fastest way to move forward just to immerse yourself in the new environment.

Patrick: 30:12

I think management or leadership positions is mostly also about what you bring to the table and you bring your very self to the table. And this, I do not think is something that you can learn or prepare in 1 or 2 years just before you take such a journey. It's a collection of your whole journey, from kindergarten to up to where you are. And if you want to prepare a lot, you may sound as not genuine sometimes. That is one thing. The other thing is linked to what are your your duties about? I think by having worked at Odoo for some time in different positions, it's actually prepares you to work with people from all walks of life, all sorts of cultural backgrounds, be it in a self contributor position as well as management, because we interact with colleagues on a daily basis, colleagues in different departments and even customers in different countries. So it is more or less the same. It is simply emphasized by the fact that if you are in a management position will be I would say the Chief Exploration Officer, you will need to talk to more people than just talk to your customers. That is one thing. And in another country, you will need to be very outgoing to people. When you meet the administration, when you meet new partners, when you meet your suppliers and so on, you need to do that level of productivity and you need to do it in a way that you do not frustrate anyone. You need to do it with the success as an objective to be more cautious, even more cautious as to how you relate to people, how you connect with them in their interest of whatever you want to advance.

Amy-Caroline: 32:02

That's interesting what you say to be more cautious. It's true that you have to be very aware of what you're doing and how people are reacting to what you're saying and what you're doing, and you have to adapt accordingly. Even coming from the US to Belgium, where overall, especially the work environment, is pretty similar of course there are differences, but I can imagine it's more similar than the working at the office in India for example, where I was for a few weeks last year. But you still have to be very aware and very cautious exactly what you said and you can't assume that what you know or what you used to will be the norm. So you completely have to readjust, which is also a challenge. It can be kind of exhausting at the end of the day, but also rewarding because you learn so much just from these experiences. Exactly what Matts said as well, just diving in and and doing it.

Matts: 33:01

I think also really important is indeed you just have to listen in the end, listen to the people that you work with. They are from a certain country, they have certain nationality and they will be able to tell you more about the place than you will ever be able to learn anywhere else. And what I've experienced here in Hong Kong is that it's useful to have what I like to call, like kind of a cultural translator, where if you're about to make some big decisions, you can check in with that person that has a good understanding of what you want to do and ask them, okay, how do you think this will be perceived from a more cultural point of view? Do you think people will understand the message? Is this the right way to put it forward? Should we change it a little bit? And this is always given me I mean, this has always been a huge benefit in order to understand how people will really feel about the decisions that have have been made. And of course, you can then still choose to move forward with a certain decision, but at least you are aware and at least you have a bit more context on how people will take it and what maybe the results will be on on the floor.

Amy-Caroline: 34:10

And I think what you just said right there is a good example of the Odoo spirit, especially coming from someone in a management position. You realize that you do need to ask for help and you do need to get opinions from others in order to make the best decisions possible. You aren't just saying, okay, I'm the leader here and this is what I'm going to do and everyone has to deal with it. I think that's really important and it also shows how open minded that we have to be as individuals and as a company to be able to thrive in this multicultural environment. I think, Patrick, you might have had something you were going to say.

Patrick: 34:44

Yeah, sure, if I can just bounce on what Matt just said, which is very I think is very interesting to say a "cultural translator", I think will copy that from you. But most importantly, you mentioned the way people could perceive whatever you are doing, your way of just walking, talking, behaving. And since you're talking about the culture, one of the things is what you do, the other one is how it is perceived. And sometimes we are so convinced of what you are saying, what you are doing because we've been doing it for years, but we tend to forget how people could perceive it simply because they have other lenses to read the same thing or the same reality. And this is something that forces us to become very humble. As Matt said, the first thing when you go to a new place, you maybe want to rely on people who have been living in that place for long. They know it better than you, and if you are humble enough, they will introduce you to how things are being done there. And it's a call it a shortcut to taking off.

Amy-Caroline: 35:43

Yeah, absolutely. There are some differences as well that you have at the different offices around the globe, just about the hours that you work and the time you start and finish. And I know it's a simple thing, but it has a big impact. So, for example, in India, they start working at ten and they end at seven. If I'm remembering that correctly. But it was definitely different than what I'm used to here in Belgium. And it sounds like the simplest thing, but it made such a big impact on my day and my mental health as an employee as well. It was a tough transition. So just can you describe a little bit what the average workday is in each of your offices? So Patrick, we'll go ahead and start with you.

Patrick: 36:29

Yes. For us in Nairobi, it's close to the ones in Belgium, except that we start at nine, just like in Belgium, But we finish at six sharp. Where in Belgium it's 530 if run it up with one hour of lunch.

But the lunch here is at 1: 36:42

00 pm. So for me, in the beginning it was quite difficult because I'm used to eating at the same time a lunch time, which was none. But on that one you can quickly catch up. Other than that, what they have noticed in only a few months, but we are yet to see how it goes is that people in general and our colleagues here will tend to stick to the I'd say the timing. It's nine that we report in and just after six we check out and it is strict but also elsewhere in the in the city that's what I tend to see. I rarely see people trying to stay longer than necessary or coming way earlier than necessary unless it is the schedule of the transportation, which in my experience in Belgium was not as prominent as as I see here. But again, this is only in a few in a few months that I'm observing this.

Speaker6: 37:37

And Matts, what about for you guys?

Matts: 37:40

So I can think sketch the situation in Hong Kong with a very clear example. So a couple of months ago I was doing an interview. I'm not sure which position it was for. It might have been a marketing position. And the person said, okay, I'm looking to change job because my previous company really was working overtime all the time. And they said for this new position in the marketing team, I'm okay to do overtime really, it's no problem, but just not every day. And was kind of shocked. They said, oh, you know we don't expect you to do overtime, if you have too much work from time to time of course it's possible that you'll have to work a little bit later. But in general, we encourage people to, you know, start and end their workday at the same time and to have a healthy work life balance. Now, Hong Kong is famous for being the overtime capital of the world almost. I think it's one of the cities with the most overtime in the world. And I think in general in Asia, looking at Japan is the same. Very famous for that, even even worse than than Hong Kong. So it takes quite some time and some effort for us to make people understand that it's really okay to go home at the working types.

So for us, we have people I mean, people are able to start between 8: 38:53

30 and

9:30 and then they end at 5:30 or 6: 38:58

30. What I typically notice is that people who just joined the company, they typically will be the last ones in the office. I believe it's mostly because they feel like this is expected of them rather than the fact that they're really still working on certain tasks. They feel like it would be a bad a bad example or it doesn't look good for them

to leave the office at six or at 6: 39:27

30 when most of the people are leaving the office. So it's been a couple of times that I had to tell people, Hey, it's

7: 39:35

00, it's okay, you can go home, you know, have the rest of your evening too. And people are usually quite, quite shocked when when we tell them that.

Speaker6: 39:43

Yeah. And so Odoo was the first job that I had after moving to Belgium, and I felt exactly the same way. And I think that's similar to how Americans will be when they first start working. But Patrick, you mentioned that they follow more of a strict schedule. So do you have the same feeling with new people until they kind of get comfortable and get the vibe of the daily flow? Or is it really it's culturally,everyone agrees, just do your hours and follow the schedule and you're good to go.

Patrick: 40:14

Oh, don't think it's only new colleagues, I think it's more general. And as you know, we have such a thing as flexible hours, meaning that we do not want to be strict on. We start at this time. We leave at this time. We have some kind of minimum-maximum. You can come really early if you have some other, let's say, commitments to attend to you can leave a little bit early, as long as you compensate. As Matts says we don't expect to work overtime or we kind of respect that. And I think although we explained it and so on, it's not yet considered as we say it. So you typically see someone who comes early but then leaves at the same time that is expected at six and someone who comes a bit late mean quite late and leaves still at six, which is okay because it's not in the culture here. But again, it's something that we want to promote because of, as you said, we want to have a good balance at work and for your other commitments outside work. But it's something we need to educate our colleagues about because it's simply not the way it is commonly done here. Yeah.

Matts: 41:21

I also believe that, if people have more time and I'm just looking myself for that, if you have more time to finish a task, you will take more time to finish a task. So certain tasks, you can take five hours to finish them. If you get five hours, but you probably can do them almost as good in maybe 20% of that time. So yeah, it's and I think that's why it's important that we give that message to people saying, okay, you have your work from, let's say, 9 to 6, and within that time you actually are supposed to finish the work and the duties that come with the job, because if they will have more time, of course they will also take more time. But then productivity is not really at the place where where we would want to see it.

Amy-Caroline: 42:06

Yeah, I understand. I completely agree with that. And have you guys integrated the hybrid work situation or is everyone coming to the office?

Patrick: 42:16

Yeah, as we are starting, I think it was important to report to the office because the team is young but also growing really fast. Every month we have between 2 or 4 new colleagues joining. For the sake of getting to know each other and creating and bringing that company culture, we found it easier when we are at the office than when we are working from home. And in fact, in six months we did actually work from home for two weeks. That was back last year and it went well. It was really smooth on the job itself. I think people realized that this is a job, it's a commitment, and they do deliver well independently for responsibility. And that is okay. But on the team bonding on the company culture, it could have been a little bit difficult, especially for new colleagues who are fresh out of university and who needs to learn everything. It's way easier to turn in the office, ask a question to anyone than to try and chase people on Discord on or whichever chatting tool. Now we are totally open to it because at the group level we did a remote or a fully mean a mixed environment or a fully remote work for almost two years or more than a year during the COVID time. And as far as I know, almost all of the teams and offices performed really well. So this has become quite a part of the reality. Now, before Covid, I know that it was almost a no go to do a remote work for some reasons, and after that you could see a shift in the way we perceive it. It's an option which has some advantages, some drawbacks also, but it is totally okay to think of it.

Matts: 43:58

Yes, I agree with Patrick. And I think indeed, when a new office is getting started, I believe it is really important that people get together. Because these first couple of months, even the first year, is when you really create that core team of the people who are going to be basically leading the company in the next 4 to 5 years. So you want people to spend time together, you're going to face a lot of difficult situations. You want to go through all of that together and you want to go really fast. And if you want to work fast, I think it works way easier if you are literally sitting next to each other. It's the fastest way to learn and to move forward. Now in Hong Kong, so the office here has yeah, it's been almost around since almost ten years now, we do have a hybrid working kind of arrangements. So we do three days in the office and then we work two days from home. We work according to a schedule, which means that teams are always coming in together on the same day so that when you want to do team meetings or when you want to grab lunch with your team, everybody at least is is in the same place. And think it's extremely important for working culture. Working culture is the most valuable thing that we have as a company together with the product and working only from home, I think will definitely slowly eat away from that unique working culture that we have. So hybrid way is a is a good way to go.

Amy-Caroline: 45:26

Okay, nice. So it's good that you guys are having a good experience with that setup. I completely agree that it's on a personal level, working abroad. It's so important to have those face to face interactions as well. Of course, to build the community of Odoo and and to grow the Odoo culture, but also to still reinforce your own community, because it's not just about meeting people outside of work. Do people inside of work. You spend hours with them, you develop relationships with them as well. And that's super important. So of course, before going to any country, you might have some stereotypes in your mind about what to expect. Do you feel that those. Are often true or if they're helpful or if it's just complete nonsense? What do you guys think?

Patrick: 46:18

I'm not sure stereotypes are complete nonsense every time, because what they are is it's an easy way for the minds to categorize people or things and so on. So it makes things easy. And you have kind of a compass to work by, but it can bring some funny situations where you are totally far from what the reality is. So having stereotype about people could be very misleading. As I said previously, what could be interesting is to focus on the person that you have in front of you to relate to them. But stereotypes can help you sometimes to get the big picture. But what is most important is the person in front of you. You can have two persons from the same background or same community. You may get along really well with one, but not with the other, simply because these are two different individuals.

Matts: 47:12

Yes, I think cultural frameworks can help, but in the end, individuals will always prevail. So there will always be people who are defying the stereotypes. That being said, I do think stereotypes are there for a reason, but you cannot apply a stereotype in every single situation. So at Odoo specifically, people join the company because they know that this is a company that is changing all the time. They know that it's a multinational company that's now yeah, we have offices in over 13 countries. Really impressive and it will only increase in the future. So I believe the kind of people that we attract in the first place are already people who are typically outside of the stereotypes that you would think of in the first place. Now that being said, I do think when it comes to working culture and working working culture stereotypes, that it's our responsibility as as managers to also guide people on what the expectations are. So you need to and this is what Patrick mentions, you need to explain again and again and again what the expectations are. You need to communicate about that so that people understand the framework of the company and what is expected of them in general. So that is really a key point, is to keep talking about it as much as you can. Actually, you can never talk too much about it.

Speaker6: 48:44

So have a kind of a funny question for you guys. If you could go back in time and start from day one, what is the first thing you would do or what is the thing you would do differently? This is a tricky question. If you need a second, don't worry, you can think about it.

Matts: 49:00

I think I'm ready. So the first yeah, the very first thing that I would do is spend way more time with the team. I feel like in the beginning I isolated myself a bit too much, which is, yeah, there's really no advantage to that because in the end you have your team and that's all you got, right? So the first thing I would do right now, if I would start again is I would take probably everybody separately out for lunch over a period of 2 to 3 weeks, and I would really want to get to know the person. I would like to understand what they're working on, how that's going, feedback that they have on a one on one basis so that, you know, after these three weeks, I feel like, okay, I know everybody who's there, I know who I'm working with, I know or I have a good idea of of the character's strengths and let's go for it. So that's absolutely the number one thing that I would do if I would start again.

Amy-Caroline: 49:52

Nice.

Patrick: 49:53

I think that one can be relatable on top when it. Look at our new office and the fact that we are building from scratch. The first colleague we had is an HR professional. I think one of the things we could have done more is to rely on her to also share the best practices in the world of work because she's been in the field and she has a lot to say about it. Even if sometimes it could be totally different from our culture. But at least to consider a little bit more how things are being done here again, then to try to find the balance between the culture we want to promote and the culture we want to acquire because we are in a totally different place. We don't have a replica of what they are doing in another office hundred percent as is in this office. Otherwise you will lose some local flavors, if I can say. Right. And that's one of the things I think we can still do more because it's not too late.

Speaker6: 50:48

Yeah, it's never too late. So finally for any of our listeners who areconsidering to work abroad or work in a multicultural environment, do you have any tips or tricks on things that they should absolutely consider or know or try to be to best adapt to that situation?

Patrick: 51:11

Again, it's really based on our own experiences, so sometimes we are not only even legitimate to share, but again, it comes from our experiences. Something could be replicable elsewhere. One of the things that I usually believe in is to be optimistic or positive about any new chapter that you're about to start relocating or meeting people from different backgrounds or beliefs or values can be stressful because you know that you are going at some point to meet something that is different. So be positive that from those differences, good things will happen. And in any case, you will learn something new. So that's one of the things, the way I want to prepare mentally to approach new cultures or new people. And then to also brace for impacts because you need to be prepared to be amazed, to be delighted, to be sometimes shocked by the cultural differences and to take that gracefully. A hint sometimes is to unlock a knowledge, if you meet with a situation that is awkward or funny or sometimes very risky to acknowledge it instead of trying to fake it until you make it. I found that humor really helps on that one. It could be that you didn't treat the person in the wrong way. You shouldn't do that. Acknowledge that. Oh, I didn't know. And then try to to quickly move on. Two last things that I have on my mind is to try to be, uh, genuinely curious about others by trying to understand that person, because culture is usually, I believe, a way of life in a certain community, but that community is also made of individuals. So try to understand that person as a single person, but also the whole background of where they come from, what they believe in and so on. Sometimes it opens the best conversations ever. The ones that you remember after you have finished signing a deal or discussing about the the sales revenue reports, for example. That's one of the things that really tends to focus on. And the last thing which could really bring some tensions or issues is we should avoid making shortcuts or assumptions. It has happened, for example, to me that whenever I meet new people simply by the way I look or sounds, I could be put in a category only for people to find out that, oh, maybe, no, you are not in that category, but in between you can have some really funny conversations. So that would be a few of the hints I have to stay optimistic to prepare, to be amazed or to learn something totally different. Curiosity and less assumptions if we can.

Amy-Caroline: 54:04

Really great tips, really, really nice.

Matts: 54:05

Yeah. I would say from from my side, the most important thing if you're considering to go and work abroad is just to do it. I have met very few people who have regretted their experience of working abroad. Even if it is uncomfortable, even if it is not what you expected, no one has ever told me that they would go back and not actually go for that experience again if they had the chance. So that would be the first step. Again, just going for it. Then next thing, and this is, I would say applicable personally, but also professionally is in your first couple of weeks, you want to focus on meeting people and meeting as many people as you can. I really believe that staying in a place long term is going to be only possible if you meet the right kind of people and if you build a community around you. So you want to say yes to every single invitation that you get, even though it's going to get very intense for you, you're going to go to dinners, you're going to go out, you're going to go to seminars, you're going to go and join pretty much every single event that you can. And that will allow you to first learn a lot about the environments that you're in from people who have already been living there since a very long time. And second, it will allow you to create relationships that will also allow you to, you know, sometimes maybe vent out or have a discussion when things are not so good when you are living abroad. Because to be honest, it's not always an easy process to live so far from from home. So that would be the very, very first step, is getting to know as many people as you can and building these relationships that allow you to build resilience for when things are a bit more difficult.

Amy-Caroline: 55:58

Very nice. So that's the end of this episode. Thank you both for joining me. It has been so nice to talk to you both. A very interesting conversation. Thank you again.

Patrick: 56:07

Thank you very much to you too. It was very interesting, as you said, and a pleasure to learn from your experiences also.

Matts: 56:12

Thank you very much, Amy. Thank you.

Amy-Caroline: 56:14

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Planet Odoo. We hope you found our discussion on cultural diversity in the workplace. Insightful and informative. As we've heard from our guests, cultural diversity can bring unique strengths to any organization, but it's important to be aware of the challenges that come with it. If you're interested in exploring more topics related to business growth and development, we invite you to check out our previous episodes. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider following our show and sharing it with your friends and colleagues. Until next time, keep learning and growing.